Henry Raymond

Fairfax News => Current News & Events => Topic started by: MikeF9 on October 26, 2012, 01:06:03 PM

Title: Photos from the Georogia Mountain Wind Project
Post by: MikeF9 on October 26, 2012, 01:06:03 PM
Chris Santee and I were given a tour of a couple of tower site at the Georgia Mountain Wind Tower Project. Very impressive.

(http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/254287_4794071614984_1455870784_n.jpg)
The base of one of the towers. The blue-tarped unit closest to the camera is what the propellers hook onto. The thing in back is the hub that sits on top of the tower.

(http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/560815_4794074215049_459219943_n.jpg)
Another shot of the foundation. The tower will sit on the round cement and be held in place by all the threaded rod sticking up.

(http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/63116_4794076655110_1480270700_n.jpg)

(http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/541271_4794083335277_2029557097_n.jpg)
Nine of the twelve propellor blades are on the job site. The remaining three should be coming through Fairfax Saturday morning between 5 and 6am.

(http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/178940_4794094455555_1707334552_n.jpg)
Again, pictures do not do justice as to how big these things are. Reminds me of a whale's fin.

(http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/66386_4794097615634_1033404423_n.jpg)
Chris Santee in the foreground. A photographer from the County Courier next to the propeller.
Title: Re: Photos from the Georogia Mountain Wind Project
Post by: nhibbard on October 26, 2012, 08:21:24 PM
Any information on the project like:
 - How much power will it produce?
 - How many turbines?
 - Who is funding the project?

I haven't been watching the news so any information would be great.
Title: Re: Photos from the Georogia Mountain Wind Project
Post by: nhibbard on October 26, 2012, 08:25:42 PM
I just saw Henry's informational post that answered my questions. Seems a bit odd that BED would be the power company working this far up rather than GMP.
Title: Re: Photos from the Georogia Mountain Wind Project
Post by: Razzle Dazzle on November 08, 2012, 06:35:32 AM
The first tower is upright!

(http://s9.postimage.org/nd5y57me7/IMG_8277.jpg)
Title: Re: Photos from the Georogia Mountain Wind Project
Post by: tfence on November 08, 2012, 06:55:01 AM
On the first picture, Is that chinese writing on it? No one in america can build it.
Title: Re: Photos from the Georogia Mountain Wind Project
Post by: Chris Santee on November 08, 2012, 04:37:00 PM
Yes, big tech parts are from China.
Other parts: (tower) is from Tennessee (delivered late) and blades are from Arkansas.

It was tough to watch the political ads convince us Mitt would outsource jobs, knowing all along these parts (paid for with our tax dollars) were from China.

Peace to all.
Title: Re: Photos from the Georogia Mountain Wind Project
Post by: Norton on November 08, 2012, 04:56:23 PM
Chris, I know there are generous subsidies for these projects, but the parts aren't really paid for with tax dollars, are they?
Title: Re: Photos from the Georogia Mountain Wind Project
Post by: Chris Santee on November 08, 2012, 05:44:56 PM
They are here and they are going up, so I didn't want to start a debate, but I'll try to get some exact numbers.
In the meantime, here's another recent article you may be interested in:
http://energizevermont.org/2012/08/the-milton-independent-psb-halts-blasting-at-georgia-mtn/ (http://energizevermont.org/2012/08/the-milton-independent-psb-halts-blasting-at-georgia-mtn/)
Title: Re: Photos from the Georogia Mountain Wind Project
Post by: Chris Santee on November 08, 2012, 05:50:10 PM
that didn't take long, thanks to VTDigger:

http://vtdigger.org/2012/08/26/georgia-mountain-community-wind-will-dismiss-complaint-against-neighbors-camping-in-protest/ (http://vtdigger.org/2012/08/26/georgia-mountain-community-wind-will-dismiss-complaint-against-neighbors-camping-in-protest/)
Title: Re: Photos from the Georogia Mountain Wind Project
Post by: Norton on November 08, 2012, 06:45:27 PM
From that article it seems the project is owned by local investors.  So our tax dollars didn't buy the parts from China, right?
Title: Re: Photos from the Georogia Mountain Wind Project
Post by: rod anode on November 08, 2012, 10:32:48 PM
that would make someone a nice deer stand
Title: Re: Photos from the Georogia Mountain Wind Project
Post by: gasman353 on November 09, 2012, 11:41:48 AM
Edited due to guest posting
Title: Re: Photos from the Georogia Mountain Wind Project
Post by: gasman353 on November 09, 2012, 11:42:28 AM
Edited due to guest posting
Title: Re: Photos from the Georogia Mountain Wind Project
Post by: treebeard34 on November 09, 2012, 06:20:31 PM
Looks like crap
Title: Re: Photos from the Georogia Mountain Wind Project
Post by: Harold on November 09, 2012, 07:38:33 PM
Looks like crap


Looks a lot better than continuing mountaintop-removal strip-mining in Appalachia for coal.  There comes a point where we have to stop saying "not in my backyard," and realize that elsewhere is somebody's backyard too.  If we want to use electricity, we have to realize that it comes from somewhere.  We ought to take responsibility for our energy consumption. 

It may not be a perfect project, but it may be a step in the right direction.
Title: Re: Photos from the Georogia Mountain Wind Project
Post by: treebeard34 on November 09, 2012, 08:21:11 PM
I didn't say it was a bad thing I just said it looked like Poo
Title: Re: Photos from the Georogia Mountain Wind Project
Post by: Rev. Elizabeth on November 10, 2012, 06:18:57 AM
I too have mixed feelings about what they look like; I have seen the wind farms in NY and in Austria (!) and actually, they don't look that bad.  I can't say they look any worse than those high voltage transmission line systems that march up and down the countryside.
Title: Re: Photos from the Georogia Mountain Wind Project
Post by: Norton on November 10, 2012, 07:43:10 AM
Quote
a majority of the money is from government subsidies

Skippy, do you have a source for that info?

According to this article from the Milton Independent, the project will cost 28 million dollars and government subsidies will total 8 million.  That's not a "majority"

http://www.wind-watch.org/news/2012/08/30/psb-halts-blasting-at-georgia-mtn-neighbors-allege-flyrock-crossed-property-line/

I'm not going to argue that the subsidy isn't too large.  I think it is.  But all of our energy sources get subsidies from the government, including the oil industry which certainly doesn't need them.  And the nuclear power industry literally could not exist without being continually propped up by our tax dollars.  These are ongoing subsidies for industries that should by now be able to stand on their own.  That's different from a short-term strategy to kick-start an industry in order to create economies of scale and bring costs down for future projects.

In any event, I was just responding to this:

Quote
these parts (paid for with our tax dollars) were from China

Title: Re: Photos from the Georogia Mountain Wind Project
Post by: Harold on November 10, 2012, 08:22:18 AM
I didn't say it was a bad thing I just said it looked like Poo


Sorry, Mark, I found myself with a couple of cents burning a hole in my pocket there. 
Title: Re: Photos from the Georogia Mountain Wind Project
Post by: gasman353 on November 11, 2012, 10:56:15 PM
Edited due to guest posting
Title: Re: Photos from the Georogia Mountain Wind Project
Post by: lena6 on November 12, 2012, 07:21:16 AM
And how do those things help us in Fairfax?
Title: Re: Photos from the Georogia Mountain Wind Project
Post by: MikeF9 on November 12, 2012, 10:13:48 AM
They don't. All the power goes to Burlington Electric(?). It will power 4,200 homes. Basically, one wind turbine will power 1,000 homes. That's quite something when you think about it.

Here's a question- What about the dam here in Fairfax. Is that producing power? and who get's that power? Does it stay in Fairfax? Or just gets added to the grid?

One way Fairfax may benefit from the towers is that you may have people come to take pictures of the towers and "as long as we're here, let's stop at a local place-bakery, store-to get a bite to eat." You never know.
Title: Re: Photos from the Georogia Mountain Wind Project
Post by: gasman353 on November 12, 2012, 10:22:57 AM
Edited due to guest posting
Title: Re: Photos from the Georogia Mountain Wind Project
Post by: ohhman on November 12, 2012, 01:50:07 PM
Well, like I have said, it could be huge developments of high rise housing up there, could be factories, could be lots of things. Fact is, the owners decided to do this, they have paid for the land, paid their taxes, & so therefore, they should have the right to do what they feel they should~ it's not like they just went & did it as we all remember it's been a very long & costly process for them.  As for installing things in our view, guess we should be happy to still have some views left & if people are that upset about it, maybe they should have tried to purchase land themselves.  I moved here 30 years ago to our "dead end" street that maybe had 10 houses on it with lots of empty hay fields & woods; well now there must be well over 30 new houses, some still being built, expansions of homes, school & fields & I am sure many more will come.  Price we have to pay to hopefully not depend on other countries for our needs. 
Title: Re: Photos from the Georogia Mountain Wind Project
Post by: gasman353 on November 12, 2012, 02:06:13 PM
Edited due to guest posting
Title: Re: Photos from the Georogia Mountain Wind Project
Post by: Loctavious on November 12, 2012, 02:40:10 PM
Unfortunately, the answer is NOT 'let's find more oil to satiate the countrys dependance on it."  OIL will run out - whether here or somewhere else.  Those who embrace this and prepare adequately, will be stabile where others will feel the pain of higher and higher prices. 
Title: Re: Photos from the Georogia Mountain Wind Project
Post by: msm on November 12, 2012, 05:42:20 PM
Lots of Excellent Discussion  --  No Easy Answer

Solar and Tidal Forces are never-ending sources of energy -- but the investments are lacking.. Vermont seeking Solar solutions,  but here in the Sunshine State.  A State with massive geographic areas suitable to building hectares of solar panels --lack Solar Solutions    It's flat, sandy, no freezing conditions, with major metro areas nearby ..   Layout the panels and generate some wattage --- but -- No  .. doesn't happen -- How about Texas --   --- nope -- Why can't these projects catch on ??

Mike M .  BFA Class of '77


Title: Re: Photos from the Georogia Mountain Wind Project
Post by: lena6 on November 12, 2012, 05:49:44 PM
I don't want to buy the land.  It doesn't mean I have to like what they are doing with it.
Title: Re: Photos from the Georogia Mountain Wind Project
Post by: FletcherGram on November 12, 2012, 06:14:59 PM
Thank you Rev Elizabeth and Harold.
Title: Re: Photos from the Georogia Mountain Wind Project
Post by: gasman353 on November 12, 2012, 06:30:55 PM
Edited due to guest posting
Title: Re: Photos from the Georogia Mountain Wind Project
Post by: mkr on November 13, 2012, 07:45:29 AM
Mike Cain took the words out of my mouth :-)

Change can be hard for many and I understand that.  I do know we have these things called "power lines/poles" all over town and I am sure that many complained back then when they went up, but now we don't even notice.

Cell Site towers is another one.  People want service but they don't want a tower anywhere that can be seen.  This too is getting better as people have become ok with a tower peaking off a mountain or where ever it may be to gain access.

Diversity is key for our energy resources and Georgia Mtn has some serious wind up there. I am looking forward to setting up a visit with them once the windmills are all up and running.

Title: Re: Photos from the Georogia Mountain Wind Project
Post by: Norton on November 13, 2012, 09:48:51 AM
If the government would open up more for oil on our domestic soil we wouldn't have to depend on those countries for our energy.

US oil production has been rising since 2008 and is now higher than at any time in the last 10 years.
http://www.indexmundi.com/energy.aspx?country=us&product=oil&graph=production
You may have noticed there's lot's of talk these days about the US becoming the largest producer in the world by 2020.

Net imports of oil have been decreasing since 2005
http://www.eia.gov/energy_in_brief/foreign_oil_dependence.cfm


Natural gas is the other energy source we need to open up to.

US natural gas production is higher than it has ever been in history.
http://www.eia.gov/dnav/ng/hist/n9050us2a.htm


Solar hasn't made any progress since the 60's.

The first solar panels from the late 1950ís cost about $300 per watt.  During the 1970ís the price dropped from about $100/W to about $20/W.  Today itís about $1/W.  In other words, the price has declined about 99% since the 60ís.
http://gosolargreenny.com/history.html
Title: Re: Photos from the Georogia Mountain Wind Project
Post by: gasman353 on November 13, 2012, 10:09:49 AM
Edited due to guest posting
Title: Re: Photos from the Georogia Mountain Wind Project
Post by: Loctavious on November 13, 2012, 12:28:08 PM
you said it yourself - oil drives our economy... and where is our economy?  where is the world economy?

      Oil alone can't be blamed - a consumer/consumption based society and thus economy is the a major culprit.  As Oil will run out, so will many other resources..... it's not hard math to see that with the world population growing, and those new millions every year needing a piece of what everyone else has - resource consumption will increases as well.  We already have been consuming more wood than we can replenish over the last 200 years. 
      Call me an ultra-futurist if you want, but we need more than a 'new energy source' to cure our ils as a species.  We need a moral and psychological wake-up call on a global scale.  where do we really want to be in 50 years and what current cultural and societal behaviors will help us/ hinder us from getting there?  What is the road there?  What do we, as a species, truly value ... what is truly important at the end of the day to us?  Is it being able to watch the Voice?  Survivor?  The Amazing Race?  Reality shows?  watching others live their lives from the comfort of our couches?  I'm stuck in the rut too - as it's what's bred into our culture these days.  and where will it lead? 
Title: Re: Photos from the Georogia Mountain Wind Project
Post by: gasman353 on November 13, 2012, 01:21:04 PM
Edited due to guest posting
Title: Re: Photos from the Georogia Mountain Wind Project
Post by: Trekr on November 13, 2012, 04:03:11 PM
One could make the case that all the ski trials that are carved into the mountainsides are ugly. The people that do the work at the ski areas make slightly more than minimum wage the the owners wax rich.
Title: Re: Photos from the Georogia Mountain Wind Project
Post by: Norton on November 14, 2012, 08:30:10 AM
Thank you for the statistics, the question is, how does it help me? I'm still paying close to $4.00 a gallon to drive my car and over $3.50 a gallon to heat my home. Solar technology is still the same, it needs sun, where is that gonna come from in Vermont in the winter? Make a windmill and solar panels that I can afford and that will keep my house and family warm I will buy into it. As far as natural gas goes, I know production is up, I was saying lets utilize it more to power vehicles. Replace diesel or gas with natural gas.

I don't mean to overwhelm with statistics, but reality does matter.  The windmill parts weren't bought with tax dollars.  The government isn't paying for a majority of the windmill costs.  We are already "opened up" to oil and gas production.  Solar power has changed a lot since the 60's.  The sun does shine in Vermont.  For example, Iím paying the same cost per gallon as you to heat my home, but my heating system didnít run yesterday, and it wonít be running todayóbecause the sun is shining.

You got me curious about compressed natural gas vehicles.  There may not be much savings there.  You can buy a CNG Honda Civic today.  According to the EPA, it would save $200 per year in fuel costs assuming 15,000 miles/yr, compared to a Civic Hybrid.  The cheapest CNG Civic costs about $2100 more than the Hybrid, so it would take more than 10 years and 150,000 miles for the fuel savings to equal the price increase.  So even if there were a lot of fueling stations, I'm not sure it would be a "huge benefit".  The CNG does save more compared to the regular gas version ($600/yr).  I couldnít tell from the info I was viewing what the incremental cost is because they gave a range of prices for the gas version.  But if you were looking for the cheapest transportation, you would logically compare the CNG Civic to the cheapest gas Civic, and the difference is more than $10,000.

Skippy, I donít mean to pick on you.  I appreciate your directness.  I think I may be oversensitive to unsupported statements that seem to me to be false.  Maybe itís because we hear so many of them these days.  So when I reacted to Chris and your statements that our tax dollars are paying for the windmill parts, in part I may have been reacting to the way many of us are subjected to slanted (and sometimes blatantly false) characterizations of ďfactsĒ, whether they come from Fox News or MSNBC.  (I donít watch TV either, but I visit their websites).  Itís frustrating that we have such big problems to solve and we often canít even get started on solutions because the polarized sides each have their own ďfactsĒ.
Title: Re: Photos from the Georogia Mountain Wind Project
Post by: gasman353 on November 14, 2012, 04:30:08 PM
Edited due to guest posting
Title: Re: Photos from the Georogia Mountain Wind Project
Post by: gasman353 on November 14, 2012, 05:30:50 PM
Edited due to guest posting
Title: Re: Photos from the Georogia Mountain Wind Project
Post by: lena6 on November 14, 2012, 05:41:49 PM
I understand they have a dateline to get the work done.
Title: Re: Photos from the Georogia Mountain Wind Project
Post by: mirjo on November 15, 2012, 02:53:44 AM
Does anyone care how the operation of these things affects the people who live next to them? I think it is a little more than a NIMBY situation. If stuff I've read is  true, these things should NOT be constructed anywhere near homes. I guess we'll find out what's fact and what's not.

My concern about all the "green energy" going on here, is I don't think it's well thought out. I feel it's a knee jerk reaction. We've known for a very long time the need for different energy sources,  but did very little until the last few years when fuel prices rose. There are a number of alternative energy sources that could be utilized in different ways, but this is the splashiest/easiest (?) to accomplish perhaps in a short amount of time...I do agree a moratorium on these projects for a little while, wouldn't be a bad idea.
Title: Re: Photos from the Georogia Mountain Wind Project
Post by: 7F24 on November 15, 2012, 06:31:32 AM
The blades were attached together on the ground then lifted as one unit.  I figured they would go up Monday or Tuesday, I think the wind delayed that. 

I just have to ask, how do you know these were not "well thought out"? 

Millions of dollars are invested in this project, the only way to get "green energy" cost effective and efficient is to use it.  The more they make, the more they learn.  I would bet that wind and solar energy will someday go the way of the computer, smaller and more powerful.  My phone can do more than a room full of computers could in the 60's.  If no one invested in those computers you wouldn't be reading my rambling now....okay....maybe that's not a good example.
Title: Re: Photos from the Georogia Mountain Wind Project
Post by: Kathleen on November 16, 2012, 03:43:47 PM
There were public meetings about the project over a year ago and Georgia and Milton residents were invited to attend them.  It's not something that just happened overnight; it's been in the research and planning stages for quite some time now.  I seem to remember Henry even posted a "mock" picture of what the mountain would look like with the windmills.
Title: Re: Photos from the Georogia Mountain Wind Project
Post by: gasman353 on November 16, 2012, 05:09:06 PM
Edited due to guest posting
Title: Re: Photos from the Georogia Mountain Wind Project
Post by: 7F24 on November 16, 2012, 07:29:49 PM
Skippy, you should buy whatever kind of wind turbines you want.  If you were to buy American turbines, what brand would you recommend?
Title: Re: Photos from the Georogia Mountain Wind Project
Post by: gasman353 on November 16, 2012, 08:24:02 PM
Edited due to guest posting
Title: Re: Photos from the Georogia Mountain Wind Project
Post by: gasman353 on November 16, 2012, 08:32:32 PM
Edited due to guest posting
Title: Re: Photos from the Georogia Mountain Wind Project
Post by: kevin on November 17, 2012, 05:58:44 AM
Solar panels on the new town hall is not a bad idea.  They could power the town hall and possibly put back into the grid.  Good idea Skippy!
Title: Re: Photos from the Georogia Mountain Wind Project
Post by: 7F24 on November 17, 2012, 07:02:04 AM
Sorry Skippy....looks like United Technologies sold Clipper.    We do agree on something though, solar panels on the town office is a great idea.
Title: Re: Photos from the Georogia Mountain Wind Project
Post by: gasman353 on November 17, 2012, 09:32:19 AM
Edited due to guest posting
Title: Re: Photos from the Georogia Mountain Wind Project
Post by: dmgp1978 on November 17, 2012, 01:35:18 PM
Some have asked what benefit these have for us locals.  When it comes to energy production, we need to think more universally.  Yes, we want to reduce our dependance on foreign oil and that is one reason.  Cost to us as rate payers is another.  One I haven't seen mentioned here much is reducing our emissions.  Wind and solar are not always the most cost effective or unobtrusive sources.  However, we do need to do something about saving our planet.  These two sources are clean and hopefully help preserve our clean air that we really enjoy here in Vermont compared to many other states.  I do think we need to progress to meet our energy needs.  Many of our nuclear power plants are aging, oil production has its own set of issues, get it here, get it there, what about the environment, natural gas is clean emissions wise, but fracking can be an issue, coal as has been mentioned here has downsides.  I think one of the solutions is to diversify our energy sources.  Personally speaking I don't mind the looks very much.  I'm anxious to see them in operation.  We do need to not ravage every vista with turbines, coal mining etc., fields of solar panels which again makes the case for diversity.  I do wonder about the impact on folks who have homes in the area and hope that there are not ill effects on them.  That would not be an acceptable trade off.  Hopefully there have been studies on such.  Would also support buying any parts possible in the US.  Unfortunately I think the reality is that we just don't manufacture that much here any more.  My two cents for the day.
Title: Re: Photos from the Georogia Mountain Wind Project
Post by: mirjo on November 17, 2012, 05:58:31 PM
It's my understanding (which isn't necessarily accurate info, btw) that turbines are noisy and create a flicker affect when it's sunny (similar to driving through a row of trees) I can imagine the combination to those nearby (a.k.a. NIMBYs) would be maddening. It's these kinds of things and base-load power sources that question whether it's been well thought out or if we're trying to jump on the (not-so) fast track to renewable energy sources because we've seriously lagged behind, due to the ease of oil?

Some years ago someone thought it was a good idea to put up a nuclear power plant--but no one thought about upgrades or maintaining it for the future...now it's aging with problems left & right, causing all kinds of issues for the state, because the legislature wants to shut it down, Entergy wants to keep it open, as do the 100s of  employees (with good reason). Nuclear power has many pros & cons on its own, but the basic correlation here is:

In +/- 20 years after the pristine vistas are ruined and what makes Vermont what it is, are we going to be left with a bunch of wearing, rusting eyesores that didn't deliver  as expected? There is no current answer to that, because no one knows how this source of power is going to work out over all and the bottom line is, we do need to do something.

A word regarding cost--no renewable source of energy is going to cost less than what we pay for oil & coal--especially not at first and likely not ever. I think we just need to adjust to the idea that those days are over and we will be paying  more from now on. It seems that's the way it will be. Another good reason for being more conservative with energy usage.