Henry Raymond

Fairfax News => Current News & Events => Topic started by: Henry on June 04, 2011, 06:04:46 PM

Title: VSP says BFA hindered police investigation
Post by: Henry on June 04, 2011, 06:04:46 PM
WCAX Channel 3 News reported tonight on the 6 pm news:

A fight on school grounds led to a fight between state police and school officials.
 
Police say two girls got into a fight in the lobby at BFA in Fairfax. Police found out there was surveillance video, but the school refused to hand over a copy.
 
Police got a search warrant and got the video.
 
Both students face charges of disorderly conduct. Their names were not released.
Title: Re: VSP says BFA hindered police investigation
Post by: 7F24 on June 04, 2011, 09:54:46 PM
I wonder who they were trying to protect.
Title: Re: VSP says BFA hindered police investigation
Post by: mirjo on June 04, 2011, 09:56:52 PM
A girl fight got so out of hand that the police had to be called? For real? That's both sad and funny on many levels. I remember a time when there were at least a couple of teachers at BFA who weren't afraid to set kids straight and would have likely stepped in and grabbed these two by the nape of the neck and sat them down hard on their derrieres.

I've subbed in the HS and I can't imagine anyone bad-a** enough that would require a VSP intervention. Fortunately, no one was injured--at least none reported.
Title: Re: VSP says BFA hindered police investigation
Post by: mirjo on June 04, 2011, 10:16:11 PM
Quote
I wonder who they were trying to protect.

Probably a confidentiality thing or else they really didn't intend for anyone to be charged and were just trying to make a point or something. Seriously, I find it a little hard to believe that a couple of teenage girls (most of which are about the size of a Q-tip) were going at it so bad that the school needed back-up. Especially this school, which is over the top in student support for "processing" and contemplation of their actions as a means of discipline (and escape from class whenever they just don't want to be there)
Title: Re: VSP says BFA hindered police investigation
Post by: vtoutdoorguymb on June 05, 2011, 02:57:13 AM
I would imagine one of the parents kids called the cops after? anyone know for sure?
Title: Re: VSP says BFA hindered police investigation
Post by: 7F24 on June 05, 2011, 05:50:58 AM
I don't get the "confidentiality" idea.  This was in a hallway in a public building. 
Title: Re: VSP says BFA hindered police investigation
Post by: formerfairfaxion on June 05, 2011, 07:40:21 AM
I agree with you Mirjo. Unfortunately in this day & age, teachers have no authority. If they touch a student parents come running to defend their kids, lodge a complaint against the teacher, and call their attorney to file a lawsuit.
When I got in trouble at school the last thing I wanted was for my parents to find out. In those days parents sided with the teacher and you were not only in trouble at school but suffered consequences at home as well.
Is it any wonder that our society is full of people who refuse to accept responsibility for their actions?
Title: Re: VSP says BFA hindered police investigation
Post by: katrinaantonovich on June 05, 2011, 02:47:51 PM
Burlington Free Press today had an article on this - and it said the incident happened at BFA St. Albans.
Title: Re: VSP says BFA hindered police investigation
Post by: monte198 on June 05, 2011, 04:31:00 PM
I would like to know who called for assistance in the matter.  School or parent after the alleged assault.  Why would the school hinder the investigation if they made the intital complaint especially if it happened in a public building with security footage.  Were they trying to hide something???.  BfA St.albans is covered by a school resource officer from st. albans city pd.  I have always wondered why the fairfax has not applied for a school resource officer grant.  From what i have gathered the grant is mostly free.  Richford has applied for the grant and both Enosburg and St. Albans have a resource officer.
Title: Re: VSP says BFA hindered police investigation
Post by: slpott on June 05, 2011, 04:58:36 PM
Not to get so far off the subject but I would think that if parents know dope smoking is taking place daily in the parking lot we could certainly use one of these officers. At least it would not be taking place at school. Very sad.
Title: Re: VSP says BFA hindered police investigation
Post by: mirjo on June 05, 2011, 11:11:56 PM
I believe it was at BFA-Fairfax, but I don't know who called the police or why. I don't know what the fight was over, possibly a boy--it still happens. Girls can get really nasty over ridiculous things & perceived slights.

Pot has been an issue here forever. Anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding themselves. There is nothing to do in this town and getting high has been a pastime for many kids for many years--even "good" kids. While there is a greater influx of harder drugs and Rx meds in the area now more than there ever used to be, which is scary in itself; the basic premise of kids smoking pot is not new to this group or the ones from a few years ago or before that.

While I agree, it shouldn't be happening in the school parking lot, it will happen regardless of the location. A kid who wants to get high before school will do it one way or other. I knew plenty who did. And that was awhile ago. Teens are not much different than they ever have been, they just have more expensive gadgets to get bored with that much faster. That's what's sad. The rest is fairly status quo as far as teens go.

 
Title: Re: VSP says BFA hindered police investigation
Post by: ASDuling on June 06, 2011, 05:57:06 AM
I think there were two different fights, one of 2 boys at St. Albans that was in the Free Press, and the one Henry mentioned at the beginning of this thread, which I haven't seen any press on, but haven't really been looking.

As I recall fights were pretty frequent the last couple weeks of school. Kids are restless, the summer vacation is so close, and finals are tense. And sometimes it doesn't take much to set off a teenager.  We had at least 3 fights a week at the end of the year, but again, teachers were able to step in and break it up. Parents were called, punishments within the school, but police were never involved.
Title: Re: VSP says BFA hindered police investigation
Post by: Henry on June 06, 2011, 07:11:31 AM
The Burlington Free Press added the following note to a corrected story on this:

(Editor's note: An earlier version of this story incorrectly stated the fight was at a different school, and that the students were boys.)
Title: Re: VSP says BFA hindered police investigation
Post by: Stand Alone Defense on June 06, 2011, 09:24:17 AM
When I was in school fights were a weekly occurrence, I can not once ever remember the cops having to be called though.  From what I hear from my younger siblings though fights are a very rare thing now. My brother that graduated last year told me that in the 4 years he was at BFA he doesn't remember 1 fight ever happening.  That's a good thing to fighting puts a lot of unnecessary stress on the students in my opinion.
Title: Re: VSP says BFA hindered police investigation
Post by: mkr on June 06, 2011, 01:45:49 PM
Too bad they have to call the cops... There were many fights/spats when I went to BFA Fairfax (Usually at the covered bridge after school) and were usually girl/boy troubles or someone was running their mouth about the other.

Fortunately we had Mr. Brown and Mr. Machia who would break up fights and get them to work it out.  I am not saying fighting is OK, but calling the cops & kids getting a record, seems so not necessary. 

I am guessing maybe a parent called the cops.  Wouldn't it have been more proper to have the girls & parents meet at the school with the principal; work it out and have the girls work together on something as a punishment.  Wouldn't this have resolved the conflict instead of making it into something worse?  If one of them was seriously injured, I guess I would feel differently, but teaching them conflict resolution is by far a more positive way...... If a lawsuit comes out of it, we will know why the cops were called...

Title: Re: VSP says BFA hindered police investigation
Post by: BFA Principal Clark on June 06, 2011, 02:11:31 PM
I am making this post in regards to the recent news that BFA hindered a police investigation.  To start, I want to be very clear that BFA and FWSU will always cooperate with police in any and every investigation. However, we cannot simply turn over student records by request without a subpoena.  With agreement from our attorney, we believed that if we did just hand over the tape referenced in the news, we would be in violation of Family Rights and Policy Act (FERPA). FERPA, a federal law, mandates that it is the schools responsibility to ensure students’ personal information is properly safeguarded.
 
To reiterate, the VSP asked for this information without a subpoena.  We asked that they provide one, we believed this to be a relatively easy thing to do, and we would have obviously complied. The VSP informed us they believed the records are exempted under the juvenile justice exception to FERPA.  However, it was the opinion of our attorney that the exception applies to requests from the juvenile justice system, not the police. Instead of subpoenaing the records, the VSP chose to acquire a search warrant and bring four officers to the school per their policy. When they arrived we immediately made a copy of the tape for them. Just as we would have, had we received a subpoena earlier in the week. The incident in question was reported to the police on May 25th. The search warrant was executed on June 3.
 
In conclusion, I want to definitively state that we support the Vermont State Troopers. We know their jobs are very difficult. We never want to make them more difficult, but the school, based on counsel from our attorney, is legally required to follow FERPA.
 
Ned Kirsch
Superintendent

Michael Clark
Principal
Title: Re: VSP says BFA hindered police investigation
Post by: mary on June 06, 2011, 05:26:30 PM
Mr. Clark: Thank you for approaching the issue conservatively. It safeguards both your students and the Town.  Well done. 
Title: Re: VSP says BFA hindered police investigation
Post by: Mummy on June 06, 2011, 07:21:08 PM
Sounds like the BFA Fairfax Bus Driver thing all over again!  Depends on who it is ... before the School will involve outside help!  Perhaps this will change sometime in the future.
Title: Re: VSP says BFA hindered police investigation
Post by: monte198 on June 06, 2011, 07:44:21 PM
Not to go in the wrong direction but my time spent in law school is that FERPA

The Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act (FERPA) (20 U.S.C. § 1232g; 34 CFR Part 99) is a Federal law that protects the privacy of student education records. The law applies to all schools that receive funds under an applicable program of the U.S. Department of Education.

Does not include withholding video surveillance of a public building as it is not a education record.

While reading this post it seems that BFA does have issues with Marijuana which it had when i attended.  I would like to know what the school thought of a School Resource Officer, a liaison postion with full law enforcement abilities to be stationed at the school.

Title: Re: VSP says BFA hindered police investigation
Post by: mirjo on June 07, 2011, 08:07:05 AM
Interesting, the most glaring question (in my opinion), "Who called the police and why?" wasn't even addressed by the powers that be. It's not a confidential matter at this point, since it's been in the paper and on the 6p news and anyone with a HS student knows the names of the girls involved.

I may be passing unfair judgment, but it seems that hiding behind the murky legalities of a Federal acronym is code for:  We can't (or won't) handle the students ourselves.

Which is ridiculous, unless there were weapons or drugs involved. why the VSP and not the Sheriff who covers the town? There is so much not being said that could be said from BFA and the SU that doesn't require disclosing names, which is confidential information.
Title: Re: VSP says BFA hindered police investigation
Post by: Stand Alone Defense on June 07, 2011, 09:37:15 AM
How is a Video taken in a public place funded by public tax dollars in any way Private?  This video has nothing to do with the student’s records it is a video tape from a public lobby in a public building.  Going to have to go with poor judgment on the schools part for this one.

Still how the police even became involved at all confuses me, but in any case good work VSP.
Title: Re: VSP says BFA hindered police investigation
Post by: mkr on June 07, 2011, 12:19:53 PM
It sounds like Mr. Clark did what he was advised to do by the attorney.  Which now a days is probably the best thing to do so the school does not get in trouble in any way, because if they did then our tax payer dollars would be going to some sue happy parent.  So although I wish the VSP had not been involved, I believe the school did as advised and was not doing it to hinder any investigation.

Title: Re: VSP says BFA hindered police investigation
Post by: Formerflatlander on June 08, 2011, 11:30:13 AM
I totally agree with you MKR.  Mr. Clark played the cards the way he should.  Like you said the lawyers fees and court time from a sue happy parent would have cost us all a LOT more.  It looks like both parties did what they were supposed to do in this instance.
Title: Re: VSP says BFA hindered police investigation
Post by: Stand Alone Defense on June 09, 2011, 09:02:40 AM
Just to be clear, my previous comment of bad judgement being used was in no way directed at Mr. Clark.  I know that Mr. Clark was doing what he was advised to do by the SU's Lawyer which is what he should do.  I just think that the Lawyer might have misread or misunderstood the statute as it only pertains to "Academic" recrods which this clearly isn't. Hopefully it all works out though and the Conflict has been resolved.
Title: Re: VSP says BFA hindered police investigation
Post by: 7F24 on June 09, 2011, 04:48:30 PM
What I find interesting about this whole thing is that fighting wasn't thought of as a big deal when I was a kid, but it IS a big deal now.   No one has the right to hit anyone.  I'm glad the police are involved, makes you think twice before taking a swing at someone.
Title: Re: VSP says BFA hindered police investigation
Post by: Shadylane08 on June 10, 2011, 07:37:12 AM
Whats too bad is back in the day you thought about your actions before you did it so it wouldn't lead to a fight.  Now a days kids don't think about there actions, a fight starts and how is their leason taught? by a lawsuit! or threat of a lawsuit!

It wasn't that long ago when I was in school that you did something wrong, or said something you shouldn't have and it was taken care of between the two people and nothing was said about it after.  Or the faculty at the school had a little more control over students.  I remember in elementary school getting caught throwing peas in the cafeteria and the principal at the time putting me up against the wall by my collar!  Leason learned!  I never threw peas again!  I actually like them now ;-)  But you imagine that happening now-a-days?  Its too bad how the way things have changed.
Title: Re: VSP says BFA hindered police investigation
Post by: Mike Raburn on June 11, 2011, 01:00:02 AM
All PUBLIC, and some PRIVATE, schools in the USA, yes even Alaska, receive FEDERAL funds, and they are mandated to follow the guide lines attached to those funds.

The Principle and Superintendent did the correct thing by consulting legal counsel DESPITE what they knew was correct. CYA.

The issue here is, what the Government attaches to monies and grants to the public education system.

Not the educators of America.

Title: Re: VSP says BFA hindered police investigation
Post by: sdogallen on June 11, 2011, 02:29:28 PM
Why have principles and superintendants anymore, lets just have the lawyers and judges run the schools.
Title: Re: VSP says BFA hindered police investigation
Post by: Mike Raburn on June 12, 2011, 04:42:37 AM
Why have principles and superintendants anymore, lets just have the lawyers and judges run the schools.

Amen,,,,,,,,
Title: Re: VSP says BFA hindered police investigation
Post by: al brodeur on June 12, 2011, 01:08:10 PM
lawyers and judges run the country, and look at the shape its in!
Title: Re: VSP says BFA hindered police investigation
Post by: mrome on June 12, 2011, 01:38:23 PM
Hey, don't forget it's your elected officials that create the laws and it's often a "jury of your peers" that determine guilt. The lawyers just feed off what "we" create. Somewhere along the way, and we continue to see this evolving, personal responsibility has gotten watered down. Kids learn entitlement. In fact, now it's almost an art form!

School personnel acted responsibly in making the police get their paperwork in order. It's the damn newspaper that created the problem by using inflammatory language (i.e., "hindered"). If the reporter had asked for the school's side of the story, and been responsible in their journalism, this whole thread would never had to be created, the school wouldn't have had to defend it's actions, and the world would be a better place.

There. That's my soapbox. Blame it on the media!

Margo
Title: Re: VSP says BFA hindered police investigation
Post by: slpott on June 12, 2011, 05:26:38 PM
Ed, I think we should love her. It makes perfect sense to me. Thank you Margo
Title: Re: VSP says BFA hindered police investigation
Post by: rod anode on June 12, 2011, 06:53:31 PM
i didnt say nothin ,what am I being blamed for now?
Title: Re: VSP says BFA hindered police investigation
Post by: cedarman on June 13, 2011, 08:56:55 AM
I find it interesting reviewing the postings.  It seems like at one time in our society, things were "handled between two people", which sometimes involved fighting.  While the occassional fighting was necessarily accepted, it wasn't made as big a deal as we do now.

Now, some people are happy fighting is HIGHLY discouraged and the police are getting involved, as well as lawyers and judges determining everything. But at the same time, people seem frustrated that "kids" (and an increasing number of adults) these days act entitled and have less personal responsibility.

If you build a society where the wants of individuals are catered to, and someone else resolves differences between individuals (they don't resolve them personally), then judges and lawyers really will (already do) run everything, and nobody has to have personal responsibility because if you have the better lawyer, you can push the blame to someone else.

Welcome to the "Nanny State" in which we live.  This condition has been built over the last 40 years or so  by parents who spent a lot of time "protecting" their kids (from everything), and making sure they didn't go without (anything). 

I guess the question now is, can we change the direction of our society to push responsibility back onto ALL parties involved in an issue?

Are there enough people who have a problem with the general lack of personal responsibility to make a change?
Title: Re: VSP says BFA hindered police investigation
Post by: Stand Alone Defense on June 13, 2011, 09:28:10 AM
I find it interesting reviewing the postings.  It seems like at one time in our society, things were "handled between two people", which sometimes involved fighting.  While the occassional fighting was necessarily accepted, it wasn't made as big a deal as we do now.

Now, some people are happy fighting is HIGHLY discouraged and the police are getting involved, as well as lawyers and judges determining everything. But at the same time, people seem frustrated that "kids" (and an increasing number of adults) these days act entitled and have less personal responsibility.

If you build a society where the wants of individuals are catered to, and someone else resolves differences between individuals (they don't resolve them personally), then judges and lawyers really will (already do) run everything, and nobody has to have personal responsibility because if you have the better lawyer, you can push the blame to someone else.

Welcome to the "Nanny State" in which we live.  This condition has been built over the last 40 years or so  by parents who spent a lot of time "protecting" their kids (from everything), and making sure they didn't go without (anything). 

I guess the question now is, can we change the direction of our society to push responsibility back onto ALL parties involved in an issue?

Are there enough people who have a problem with the general lack of personal responsibility to make a change?



AMEN COULDN'T HAVE SAID IT BETTER!!!!!!!
Title: Re: VSP says BFA hindered police investigation
Post by: 7F24 on June 13, 2011, 11:31:42 AM
When I was in school most fights were started by one person, not both.  Usually it was the person that won the fight, they wouldn't have started it if they thought they would lose.  The people that start most (not all) fights, are in my mind "bullies".  I believe in right and wrong, and I don't blame anyone that fights defensively.  I just think that no one (not even me) has the right to hit someone else.  If reviewing the tapes shows bulling, then someone should have to answer for it.  If that makes me a Nannie, so be it.
Title: Re: VSP says BFA hindered police investigation
Post by: 7F24 on June 13, 2011, 04:27:35 PM
bullying...not bulling.
Title: Re: VSP says BFA hindered police investigation
Post by: sdogallen on June 13, 2011, 07:46:40 PM
Changing society will have to start at the top. Thats your cue Mr. President! How low will it go?
Title: Re: VSP says BFA hindered police investigation
Post by: Loctavious on June 15, 2011, 09:02:53 AM
Actually - changing society has to start at the bottom - unless you want bigger government - Big brother, and that socialist state everyone's been talking about that Obama wants.

Parents and parenting is where you change society - not by having politicians make decrees or new laws... though that's the only way it seems that oen can affect change with some parenting philosophies.

It starts with Parents..... knowing what their kid(s) are doing... What they're saying on Facebook.... in School, to their peers, their teachers... WOA - Parents need to actually get to knwo their kids - instead of dictate what they should be like and hope it happens.

The most difficult thing though - is that the PARENTS need to lead by example; can't tell your kids not to speak rudely to others when mom and dad speak rudely to them or others in front of the kids.  Can't tell your kids to not text so much - when i'm sendign a text... or not be on the phone so much - as i cradle it b/w my shoulder and neck.

this isn't a new idea or radically liberal - it's common sense and A LOT of people choose to ignore it as it means that someone somewhere will have to look in the mirror for blame instead of anywhere else. 



Title: Re: VSP says BFA hindered police investigation
Post by: ohhman on June 15, 2011, 11:59:07 AM
I agree parents need to be involved, but I can tell you that not all kids agree, let alone listen & follow what their parents try to teach. Some kids are very influenced by their peers rather than parents & no matter how hard parents try to do as you say "lead by example", some kids just aren't going to be that way! Facebook can be a great thing, but it also can be very damaging. I notified FB of an incident & got a generic note that they received my note & would be checking -HA!-  that didn't happen as it still continues & as a parent, sure you can know what kids are saying, but you can't stop it as kids will find a way to continue some behaviors.  Some of us aren't lucky enough to have children that go with the grain & "get it";  yes I speak from experience!  Kids DO have to take ownership of their behaviors & there DOES need to be consequences!
Back to the way Mr. Clark handled this: I have talked with him on different issues & I have ALWAYS found him to be  very fair!! He offers ideas, really talks like he does care, because personally, I believe he does.  I am very glad he is in our school system.
Title: Re: VSP says BFA hindered police investigation
Post by: Loctavious on June 15, 2011, 01:55:43 PM
So are you suggesting that others do the job of the parents?  That others restrict kids access /use of FB?  of texting?  that others discipline kids for rudeness, violent or inconsiderate behavior?  That others - such as The president in some form, intentionally affect change in society?  What type of change?  i was commenting on the poster before me's suggestion that the president be the one to change society - society can't be changed by one person - or by our politicians - that has to come from a shift in thinking by ALL of us - and beyond that practicing that shift and not just talking about it.
Funny - parents have debated for a logn time - both for and against, anyone else but them, being able to teach, discipline, or otherwise affect change in their children that they do not agree with ( look at the debates out west over teaching about homosexuality in schools - or about bible studies...).  Yet it seems there's a suggestion here to in fact have governement/schools take responsibility for the ills of some students.
Sorry - do not agree with that.  Kids gather their bent on life and their place in it in the few short years they have before they enter school.  I agree that exposure to other students behaviors can and does seem to 'contaminate' some students minds.  But again - it's way beyond the schools scope of influence given the current structure and budgets of how schools operate.  Pay teachers more, revamp the entire approach to education, take a real close look at providing parenting classes and partnership initiatives b/w parents, teachers, and school administrators and perhaps that could change.  until then - parents need to take responsibility for their part ( or lack there of in some cases) in the upbrining of their children. 
I frimly believe that 99% of what people deem to be 'wrong' with a child or kids - is actually a result of something the parents did or didn't do right.  The other 1% is genetics.( caveat: this statement omits that percentage of kids that have genetic, physical, or mental affliction).
Title: Re: VSP says BFA hindered police investigation
Post by: Stand Alone Defense on June 16, 2011, 10:18:10 AM
The problem is you can't discipline your kids now a days!! When I was a kid and I stepped out of line or talked back and was disrespectful, I got dads belt across my butt!! If you do that now and your kid tells someone you get child services knocking on the door.  I have a friend thats 14 year old kid just got suspended from school for drugs.  Well he said if you are not in school you're going to work splitting wood with dad so that’s what he did for 3 days.  Now he is going to court because the mother of the child is saying that it is child abuse to force your child to do manual labor for 8 hours a day as a punishment.   Will she win? I'm hoping not but the fact is that the court system is entertaining the fact that she could and he did something wrong.

It's not just parenting it's our society as a whole even in the Military things are getting soft.  When I was in boot camp your drill instructors could put there hands on you and did it a lot!! If you did something dumb you got dropped and they made you PT till you puked!! Now kids get stress cards!! When you feel like you can't do anymore just pull out your stress card and they have to stop for 5 minutes!! Are you kidding me!!?? This is Military boot camp we are talking about.  What does that teach someone? Are we going to implement stress cards in battle to when you're getting shot at? Or even after the Military when you get back into your civilian life?

Loctavious, you say that by us saying things need to change from the top it means we want more Government?  No it means there is too much Government right now and the only thing they do is take away parent's rights. This whole "it takes a community to raise a child" is a crock of you know what.. My parents raised my brothers and sister Catholic and raised us to be patriotic also and I think that they did a great job!  Now here is an example of what I think the problem is with society.  When I was on my first tour in Iraq in 2003 my sister would come home from school crying because not because a kid was bullying her...but because she had 1 teacher said that "the only reason young men join the military is so they can come home and brag about killing people after. It makes them feel tough" and another teacher saying that "our president has the IQ of second grader" every other day.  Now it is there right to say this, freedom of speech right? Now what if a teacher said at the beginning of class "lets bow our heads and say a short prayer for our troops fighting over seas" That is in no way shape or form right according to our society today!!

I guess what I'm trying to say is that today’s problems in Society have very little to do with bad parenting and more to do with bad policy and bad politics
Title: Re: VSP says BFA hindered police investigation
Post by: Loctavious on June 16, 2011, 11:40:27 AM
This hyper-sensitivity you speak of.... this is isn't a product of this adiministration or the one before it or the one before that or the one before that - it's been steadily creeping in for a long time - over the last 20 years or more.

i was raised catholic as well - and got more than my fair share of corporal punishment - as i went to legit catholic schools - by that i mean - not the watered down ones here in vermont - where they could swat your rear if you did something wrong.  I went to ones in NY - where they could bo pretty much anything they wanted to: slap, spank, pinch cheeks, pick you up by your tie, hit you with switches, pointers, etc.  And that was just the school - i can remember Dads belt too.

And to a degree - i agree that with you that that sort of discipline DID keep a child in line.  Not that i ever imagined disciplining my daughter that way - nor did i - and she is just as well-behaved as i was... but also isn't messed up from trying to reconcile why this person who supposedly loves me is inflicting pain on me to teach me a lesson.  that's a topic you and i can discuss later if you like.
to the point of our discussion.  The poster before me inferred by their comment, "Changing society will have to start at the top. Thats your cue Mr. President! How low will it go?" - that the president shoudl start chainging society by what?  changing laws so parents can hit their kids again? is that really the direction we want to go - backwards - will that make anything better?  bring back some sort of glory days? 
Truth is that children can be discilined without corporal punishment and it can be just as effective as hitting or the threat of violence.  so i don't think that's the answer.

what did that poster mean?  That governement needs to start getting involved more or backing off?  it's not clear by that post alone - but reading into your comments - i get the sense that the blame is being put on government or laws passed by such that have parents thinking they can't be parents.  where does it say you HAVE to hit your kid to discipline them?  do parents actually say to themselves, " O h well - if i can't hit my kid or threaten it, then i might as well give up trying to discipline them?"  no they find ways.

Government SHOULD Start snooping into those really GREAT parents - who obviously have no idea what it means to be a parent.  Snooping isn't a good word.... 'offering assistance' ( is a better term perhaps) in the form of free education....perhaps mandatory free education as i DO NOT think it's ok to allow parenting that borders on neglect and child endangerment - such as no supervision what so ever, and no involvement in the child's daily life.  it sends a pretty clear message to the child when mom and dad care more about themsleves then how their day at school was or how they felt about something that happened to them.

i don't think are view points are as far apart as we think they are - we both agree a change is needed.  Both agree that the current system ( which is actually an older system that's been updated and modified so many times instead of instituting a new one that it's drastically dysfunctional - and we put our faith in it being able to work for our kids....) doesn't work to well and could use a revamp.  Let's focus on what we DO want to see or what we DO think is right and take it from there.
Title: Re: VSP says BFA hindered police investigation
Post by: mirjo on June 17, 2011, 01:15:02 AM
Josh, you were fortunate to be raised in a loving home that gave you and your siblings all you needed including discipline. You have wonderful parents and the fact that you recognize and appreciate this, is testimony to your upbringing. Sadly, not everyone is as fortunate and I have to agree that much of the problem lies with parents who simply aren't as involved as they should be, for one reason or other.

With parents either  having  or choosing to work longer hours to bring home the income needed to support the family,  a lot of valuable 1:1 time has been sacrificed. Couple that with guilt the parents feel and the rapid rise of techno-gadgets and what you have is a generation of kids totally absorbed in their own little world and parents feeding it with guilt. With my own kid, what I see is a general lack of a willingness of parents to say "no," because it's hard, it takes far more energy and will to stand against the onslaught of dissatisfaction than it does to give in to a demanding, whiny teen, who is yelling "I hate you!" In the past year, I've seen kids who have been in trouble in school allowed at the dances! Why is this happening on the school's part in the first place and in the second where is the parent taking any responsibility here?
If you're in trouble at school, you shouldn't be attending any extracurricular function. These students are only learning their actions don't matter, there is no accountability.

I'm not a fan of the "lead by example" school of thought unless that is  the global concept of the golden rule "do unto others..." I lead by example in trying to be a good citizen, showing caring and empathy for others, doing my part in being a good steward of the planet, etc., but that's as far as it goes, I think anything more personal is what gives kids this entitlement power. I'm a firm believer in the  "do as I say" rule. I've earned the the right to be an adult, which comes with certain expectations of maturity and propriety, lessons I try to pass along. I don't understand the logic behind allowing kids to dictate what parents can and can't do. I think this is how we got here.

The way I see it, I graduated from high school and earned a couple of post-secondary degrees, I have therefore done the time. If  I'm giving my kid a directive to put the cell phone away and do homework, I don't think I need to refrain. Sorry, that's just nuts.

Kids really just want to know they're cared for and valued. A little time spent doing something low-tech goes a long way. I recently spent a weekend working on a quilt project with my daughter--not the fancy expensive kind you buy at JoAnne's with all the pre-cut matching pattern pieces, but a real fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants project cutting old t-shirts she'd kept and sewing the "applique's" onto blocks of material she had handy. It's the first time I have ever seen her do something for an extended period w/o her texting every few minutes or checking her phone "just in case." For two days straight, she didn't even utter the word facebook. I was more than amazed, because she was planning for the next time, before we finished.

She doesn't like all of my rules and we butt heads a lot. I've learned that I'm "old fashion," because I don't allow sleepovers on school nights--even though I'm pretty liberal about them on non-school nights. I'm also ridiculous, because I don't allow her to "hang out" at the school for hours if she doesn't have a specific (supervised) purpose for being there. I insist on knowing where she's going and with whom. When I grounded her for 'forgetting' to call me and tell me her plans to go to a football game had changed (and I found out at the end of the day she had spent the time at her friend's house instead of the game where I thought she was) I heard for months how over the top that was and how everyone (including some faculty members) thought so, but she hasn't forgotten to tell me her plans since. Lesson learned.

Being involved and present isn't easy. Neither is being the one to say no to things that seem so important in a melodramatic moment, but really aren't. I remember when my son was young a friend of his couldn't come to his birthday party because they were going to pick up his older brother at college. I offered that he could come to the party and stay as long as needed, but the answer was still no, because it was a family day or something like that. I'm guilty of not having stressed the "family-time" aspect when my kids were younger and admire those families that did and do. I now realize the importance of instilling that concept of "family first" at an early age. Without planting the expectation, you can't expect it to be there. The same is true of everything this thread is about: respect for authority, self control, etc.
Title: Re: VSP says BFA hindered police investigation
Post by: Chris Santee on July 01, 2011, 08:24:53 AM
Follow-Up on the Search Warrant Executed at Bellows Free Academy
Captain Dan Troidl, Commander Troop A, Vermont State Police - 802-524-5993

Fairfax, VT 6/27/2011 – On June 3 members of the St. Albans Barracks executed the search warrant at the Bellows Free Academy in Fairfax, Vermont. During the execution of the search warrant, troopers met with the school officials and obtained footage integral to an investigation into a fight which had occurred between two students on May 25. 

The press release issued by the state police on June 3 implied school officials from Bellows Free Academy were uncooperative, however the Bellows Free Academy was advised by legal counsel to withhold the video in accordance with Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act (FERPA) (20 U.S.C. § 1232g; 34 CFR Part 99).

As a follow up to the June 3 search warrant, school officials met with Captain Dan Troidl, Troop A Commander of the Vermont State Police, to discuss future interactions between the school and law enforcement officers. The Vermont State Police and Bellows Free Academy look forward to positive interactions in the future when coordinating public safety and the educational rights of students.